Cast bullets for .30 Carbine

Discussions of bullet casting, sizing, etc.

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WyrTwister
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Cast bullets for .30 Carbine

Postby WyrTwister » Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:13 am

I have been loading .30 Carbine with ~ 130 grain soft lead ( swagged ? ) bullets . These have a long tapered nose , a little bit rounded at the point . I got these bullets in trade from J B .

Well , I ran out . Went digging around in the cabinet and found some bullets my cousin had cast for me . They were about 120 grain .312" RNFP GC Lee cast .

My cousin has the mold that drops these . ( I have a similar Lee mold to this , that dropps pretty much the same bullet in a RNL . )

I started running the RNFP bullets through the Lyman Lub-Sizer , seating GC's and sizing to about .312" . After I had lubed , sized & GC'ed a few , I started trying to adjust the seat / crimp die for the RNFP bullets .

I ran into problems . I could adjust the die to seat only . That was OK . But when I lowered the die enough to crimp , the bullet became stuck in the die .

After fighting this for a while , I tried a few bullets sized & GC'ed with a Lee push through die . The bullets came out about .311" .

I think this will work . I ran the bullets previously sized & GC'ed in the Lyman , through the Lee die . I will size & GC the rest of the bullets with the Lee die & probably tumble-lube them all . And let dry .

I can not remember having this issue with the RNL bullets my mold drops ? When loading cast bullets in calibers " intended " for jacketed bullets , I often fine the cast bullets have a rounder nose than the " normal " jacketed bullet .

This changes the way the die is adjusted , often with the OAL ending up shorter than " standard " factory ammo . If they are not seated deeper , the rounded nose hits the end of the chamber / start of the rifleings & this prevents the bolt from being closed completely .

It may be that the nose of the RNL bullets is enough different than the RNFP bullets , that I did not have the problem with the bullet getting stuck in the die ?

If I had a 5th die , just to crimp ( with die # 4 only to seat the bullet ) I might not have run into this issue ? I may break down and order a Lee .30 Carbine FCD , next time I turn in an order ?

Does the Lee .30 Carbine FCD have the 4 collet " fingers " that do the crimping ( like the bottle neck rifle calibers ) ? Or is it a carbide post-sizing die like my .45 ACP FCD ?

My cousin ordered one & I think he said it was a collet type FCD ?

Anyway , I adjusted the OAL by trial and error until the the OAL was just such that bolt would close on the M1 Carbine & I could manually cycle the bolt & eject the loaded round .

Now , this does not mean my ammo , such loaded will function in a different Carbine . It may or may not , depending on how the chamber is cut .

God bless
Wyr

Reload
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Postby Reload » Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:42 am

When you say 'crimp', I'm assuming you mean a taper crimp? The .30 carbine headspaces on the case, like a .45ACP. A roll crimp won't work. If you buy a separate die for crimping, it should be the taper crimp.

Unless I'm missing something?

WyrTwister
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Postby WyrTwister » Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:11 pm

Reload wrote:When you say 'crimp', I'm assuming you mean a taper crimp? The .30 carbine headspaces on the case, like a .45ACP. A roll crimp won't work. If you buy a separate die for crimping, it should be the taper crimp.

Unless I'm missing something?


I may be wrong , It happens more often as I get older . :-(

But I am guessing the companies that make .30 Carbine dies ( in the case in point , I was intending it to be Lee brand ) take this into consideration ?

Pretty much all I have loaded ( and fired ) in the past , functioned OK .

Only problem was , accuracy was dismal because I assumed that the bullets should be sized .308" , since the bore was .308" .

I have never fired more than a handful ( if that many ) of jacketed bullets through the little Inland ( General Motors ) M1 Carbine . I just concluded the little Carbine just would not shoot for beans .

Accuracy improved to the point where it was worth loading & shooting , when I started sizing to .311" - .312" .

God bless
Wyr

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daboone
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Postby daboone » Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:40 pm

The M1 carbine die is an FCD rifle type.

I have a new (1943) barrel om my Inland and a Rockola with 1943 original barrel that has seen a lot of service. I "size"* 310 for both to get leading under control. The lee C309-113F and C309-120R both work well but the new barrel gets fussy with the soup can feeding. Not every time but I don't get through a 15 round mag without working the bolt slide.

Accuracy is 3 to 4 in at 75yards. But my sons say it's more accurate for them, of course they love showing the old man how great they are! :wink:

*Actually when I said size it's an as cast from beagled molds.

Reload
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Postby Reload » Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:23 am

Makes no sense, but I don't pretend to know how it all works. Now I really want to find out.

A straight walled rimless cartridge headspaces on the end of the cartridge. This is no different than a .45ACP. You do not roll crimp them for that very reason, it shortens the case and changes everything.

A bullet is 'supposed' to have a cannelure for the roll crimp. Using a roll crimp without one can deform the bullet. A taper crimp is desired for a bullet without a cannelure.

After that, I'm lost. Why would manufacturers offer a roll crimp for this round? Does the tapered case mean it headspaces more like a bottle neck cartridge instead of the end of the case?

Need to find out or I won't sleep.....

WyrTwister
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Postby WyrTwister » Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:52 am

Reload wrote:Makes no sense, but I don't pretend to know how it all works. Now I really want to find out.

A straight walled rimless cartridge headspaces on the end of the cartridge. This is no different than a .45ACP. You do not roll crimp them for that very reason, it shortens the case and changes everything.

A bullet is 'supposed' to have a cannelure for the roll crimp. Using a roll crimp without one can deform the bullet. A taper crimp is desired for a bullet without a cannelure.

After that, I'm lost. Why would manufacturers offer a roll crimp for this round? Does the tapered case mean it headspaces more like a bottle neck cartridge instead of the end of the case?

Need to find out or I won't sleep.....


In my case , at least , with the .30 Carbine , the reality is the nose of the bullet is just far enough off the riflings to allow the bolt to close . ( Again , the large shape of the round nose or round nose flat point dictates this . )

It may be that the loaded round of ammo is head spacing off the nose of the bullet , instead of off the front of the case ? Anyway , it seems to work .

I have no idea if the die is made for taper crimp or roll crimp . Or it may depend , on some extent on how far you screw the die down into the turret ?

By the way , the loaded rounds are plenty short , to fit into the mag , loaded this way .

Also , bear in mind , these cast loads , custom tuned for my Carbine's chamber , may or may not work correctly on a different Carbine .

I have loaded .45 ACP & cast bullets , custom tuned in OAL to function in my 1911 , that would not work in a cousin's Springfield XD . The XD apparently has a tighter chamber .

He thought my ammo was defective . I do not think I ever managed to convince him , the ammo was not defective , it was just loaded for my gun . I eventually bought the Lee .45 ACP FCD . This is a carbide die that post-sizes the whole loaded round of ammo .

I have it in station # 5 on my .45 ACP turret and all .45 ACP ammo I load goes through it , as SOP .

That convinced him my ammo is OK .

It took me a while to learn that with some guns / calibers , you can not just set the OAL to the book number . Especially with cast bullets .

I have a Marlin and a Winchester .30-30 . This applies to them , depending on the shape of the nose of the cast bullet .

In fact , the Marlin has a longer chamber than the Winchester . I have to set the OAL to allow the loaded ammo to function in the Winchester . Which will also function in the Marlin . The other way around does not work .

God bless
Wyr

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daboone
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Postby daboone » Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:27 am

If my response was misleading I apologize. The FCD die for the M1 carbine is a taper crimp die. Care must be taken as a taper crimp will size cast bullets. I find crimping M1 carbine or M1 Garand unnecessary if the neck tension is right for either cast of copper condom bullets.
Reload you are correct the M1 carbine does headspace on the case mouth. Note however that case length is not exact. The minimum and maximum trim length are standardization by SAMMI. Trimmed to short or long is not a good but it's not an exact either with variables for each and every gun. If headspacing to the minimum trim length the case mouth during firing is not apt to stretch to max during firing. If however the case is not trimed to at least the max it might cause the cartridge not to seat properly and cause a slam fire in the carbine.

Reload
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Postby Reload » Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:08 pm

Ok, now we're getting to the meat-n-'taters. You guys are using the terms FCD and Taper Crimp Die interchangably, and rightfully so, but it's also misleading to my poor brain. I always try to call the taper crimp by it's function.

Looking at the info in Lee's website for the FCD, it says:

Revolver dies roll crimp with no limit as to the amount. A perfect taper crimp is applied to auto-loader rounds.

So they're one in the same, Lee just differentiates based on the type of round. The description for the rifle crimp die doesn't say the same thing, but I'd assume the same thing holds true.

Also, one wonders how critical it really is. I use a taper crimp die when reloading .45ACP, but this blurb on Lee's website from the taper crimp die description makes me think I don't really need it.

The Lee Taper Crimp Die is hardened steel designed to overcome crimp problems caused by poor die design. These dies offer little or no advantage when used with 1986 or newer Lee Dies as the crimp angle is already a modified taper crimp.

The Pro 1000 doesn't have a station for crimping, so I never worried about it. Also never had any problems. When running the Loadmaster and the only round is in the taper crimp station there is little resistance, if any. So far we've had no problems in either my Gold Cup or my Son's 1947 DGFM, which probably covers a good range of pistols.

WyrTwister
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Crimping

Postby WyrTwister » Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:25 pm

Lee makes the " standard " seat / crimp die and the FCD .

I make no claim as to whether my Lee " standard " seat / crimp dies are roll or taper crimp . For any of the calibers that I have such dies for . ( I have tried to refrain from using those 2 terms . )

Has never been an issue , for me .

Furthermore , the Lee FCD's come in 2 varieties . The carbide " post-sizing " dies and the one with the collet " fingers " .

From the info I have gathered , the .30 Carbine is a collet type of die . I presently do not own one .

I used to never crimp .223 , until I acquired an AR that had the habit of occasionally trying to shove the bullet back into the case . Since I discovered this , I use the FCD on .223 as SOP .

I still do not crimp for my FAL , M1A and Garands .

I use a pretty pronounced crimp on the ammo that is feed to my wheel guns & lever guns .

That is about all I know about the subject . That is my story and I am sticking to it .

God bless
Wyr

Reload
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Postby Reload » Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:36 am

Wyr, a question.

I've received my dies and everything else I need to convert my Loadmaster to .30 Carbine, just waiting on bullets.

By all accounts the case resizes very hard, and even though the sizing die is carbide, they recommend lubricating every 5th-10th round. Sounds like a pain in the butt when loading up the case feeder, may as well feed the cases by hand.

How do you lube, and at what rate?

Thanks.

WyrTwister
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Postby WyrTwister » Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:46 am

Reload wrote:Wyr, a question.

I've received my dies and everything else I need to convert my Loadmaster to .30 Carbine, just waiting on bullets.

By all accounts the case resizes very hard, and even though the sizing die is carbide, they recommend lubricating every 5th-10th round. Sounds like a pain in the butt when loading up the case feeder, may as well feed the cases by hand.

How do you lube, and at what rate?

Thanks.



aLMOST ALL MY CARBIDE DIES ARE lEE , EXCEPT FOR THE .44 mAG DIE .

fROM WHAT i REMEMBER , THE .30 cARBINE IS THE ONLY CARBIDE DIE lEE RECCOMENds LUBING .

Oops , sorry ! :-(

I put the cases in a plastic tub / container , squeeze a dab of Lee case lube onto the brass & add about a cap full of rubbing alcohol . Shake , rattle and roll the cases ( like tumble lubing cast bullets ) .

Spread them out ant let dry .

Caution , I once got in a hurry & loaded the case feeder up with brass , before they were dry . The alcohol shrank the 4 clear plastic tubes and ruined them . :-(

So , I lube the .30 Carbine brass the same way as I do any other brass that I lube .

Then I proceed as normal . I use the tallest case slider & adjust the height of the case feeder and distance from the press , mostly by trial and error .

What kind of bullets and powder are you going to use ?

God bless
Wyr

Reload
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Postby Reload » Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:07 am

Alliant 2400 @ 10.3gr and a cast 115gr RNBB bullet.

The bullets are from Penn Bullets, and so is the recommended load. These are rated up to 2000fps, the load will provide 1800fps. According to Penn Bullets it's a good load that cycles the action well and no leading.

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daboone
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Postby daboone » Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:07 am

Reload wrote:How do you lube, and at what rate?


Spray the surface a cheap dollar store cookie sheet with a spray lube (like 1/3 Lee mixed with 3/4 alcohol mix) drop the cases on the sheet and roll them back and forth. A spray mix like that dries in a minute and the cases are ready to go even days later if you don't have time to finish them after application.

This method is cheap and simple and take a lot of resizing stress outta all "straight walled" cases.

WyrTwister
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Postby WyrTwister » Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:25 am

Reload wrote:Alliant 2400 @ 10.3gr and a cast 115gr RNBB bullet.

The bullets are from Penn Bullets, and so is the recommended load. These are rated up to 2000fps, the load will provide 1800fps. According to Penn Bullets it's a good load that cycles the action well and no leading.



I have never used 2400 for .30 Carbine , although I have used it for other calibers .

Are the Penn bullets jacketed or lead ? RNBB - Round Nose Bevel ? Base ? Do not remember hearing of those ?

God bless
Wyr

God bless
Wyr

Reload
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Postby Reload » Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:32 am

Thanks gentlemen. I have about 3/4 of a bottle of spray lube I picked up at a gun show. I think it's RCBS, I'll give it a whirl.
WyrTwister wrote:Are the Penn bullets jacketed or lead ? RNBB - Round Nose Bevel ? Base ? Do not remember hearing of those ?



Cast, round nose bevel base. I put a link up to Penn Bullets in another thread in this forum. Nice website, and he has some good info on the lube he uses and the different leads for different rounds. Good prices too, $70/k for the Carbine round. He can ship up to 70lbs. of lead in any mix for $10.70 via USPS flat rate. I'm going to try his .45ACP 200gr SWC and see how they compare to the ones I get locally.

I've emailed the guy back and forth about the M1 round. He said he's been casting this bullet for 25 years with zero reports of leading or any problems. It is rated to 2000FPS, he recommends loading to 1800FPS using the 10.3 grains of 2400.

I recently ran across some info that said 2400 is the original M1 Carbine powder and has been around since the early 1900's. Lee lists it in their manual. I like the small charge, less powder = more round to the pound!

I'm going to load some @ 10gr and see how the do. If they're accurate and cycle the gun that's fine. I don't need 1800FPS to shoot paper.


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