Interesting discussion of the Factory Crimp Die

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Hawkmoon
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Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:35 am

Interesting discussion of the Factory Crimp Die

Postby Hawkmoon » Sat Apr 09, 2011 3:35 pm

Has anyone here actuually measured the ID of the carbide crimp ring and found the kind of dimensional discrepancies being talked out here: http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=92696 ?

Or -- has anyone noticed that ammo crimped with the factory crimp die is subject to bullet setback if cycled through a semi-auto pistol several times?

helg
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Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:58 pm

Postby helg » Sat Apr 09, 2011 8:37 pm

Carbide ring on my 45ACP FCD is .4735", and brass walls on top .1" of case neck are .009"-.010". My FCD does not squeeze .452" cast bullet, and the above numbers confirm that.

daddyseal
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Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:13 am

Re: Interesting discussion of the Factory Crimp Die

Postby daddyseal » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:59 pm

Hawkmoon wrote:Has anyone here actuually measured the ID of the carbide crimp ring and found the kind of dimensional discrepancies being talked out here: http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=92696 ?

Or -- has anyone noticed that ammo crimped with the factory crimp die is subject to bullet setback if cycled through a semi-auto pistol several times?


Yes the Lee FCD will seat the bullet deeper than wanted, when adjusted too tight. I have shelved every FCD I've bought, even when I mistakenly bought then extra because the die sets didn't come with them. And, that should tell you something about the needed for them. It even appears that Lee feels that way too, because nearly all are 3 die sets now.
And I've found that the FCD "scuffs" and leave marks on the cases.

I've found that the Lee seating die, when adjusted right will seat the bullets And put a very nice roll crimp on them too, Hawkmoon~
Watch this...you can (as I do) seat And taper/roll crimp in one step with leaves me an extra hole to install a bullet prop/feeding on my turret press:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5546vLH0ZY

rowe_s
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Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:46 pm

Postby rowe_s » Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:04 am

Lee Factory Crimp dies work well for me, wouldn't want to be without them. I use them for 30:06 M1Garand rounds, 380 Auto, and 40 S&W.

They really work well for me. The only time I had problems was when using some cast bullets I got in a trade, they were too soft. The hard cast bullets I use from "Two Alpha Bullets" work perfectly, they have no tendency to set back. They are held very tight, and shoot well.

myloadm61
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Location: Montana

Postby myloadm61 » Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:29 pm

I also use the fcd's and have very good luck with them. However, I do not cast any bullets and buy my hard cast from a couple of suppliers that show the hardness. Very happy with the fcd's.

Froznone
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 12:52 pm

Re: Interesting discussion of the Factory Crimp Die

Postby Froznone » Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:41 pm

Hawkmoon wrote:Has anyone here actuually measured the ID of the carbide crimp ring and found the kind of dimensional discrepancies being talked out here: http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=92696 ?

Or -- has anyone noticed that ammo crimped with the factory crimp die is subject to bullet setback if cycled through a semi-auto pistol several times?


If used correctly the dies do no harm.
I load ~ 18 different cartriges and I shoot nothing but cast, in many cases I use the FCD. Not all I don't need it for .40, 9mm, 380 or 45ACP.
I do use it for 10mm, I don't chamfer the inside of those cases, and a seater only crimp doesn't work well. So I over bell the mouth slightly, seat and then use the FDC to give me a "crimp groove".

I did have to order a new expander for my LEE powderthru die.
I had a custom one cut that was .452" instead of the stock .498" for the 45 colt and Cassul dies. I shoot .4545" bullets in those, and I use as soft an alloy as won't strip in the rifling.
That fixed the "shrinking bullet" problem.

The FDC gives a more accurate (IMO) crimp than only the seater.
I absolutely love it on my Beowulf loads. and wouldn't want to Not use it, and for the same reason as the 10mm. I can get a crimp groove effect and still headspace on the case mouth.

I get the biggest kick out of those who blame the FDC if someone is using that but if not they turn right around and tell people that the case is swaging down the bullet so they should use a lyman M die :-)


Anyone who tells you there is a problem with the FDC is full of crap.
Or they should return the die to LEE - the QC on that ring is loose.
If the ring is under spec then have it changed.

magic mike
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Location: TX

Postby magic mike » Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:17 pm

Funny how all this works together somehow. I just measured my 45acp FCD and it measures out at 0.4685". I cast 200gr SWC from ww lead using a Lee mold and size and lube with a Lyman Lubrisizer to 0.452". My finished rounds measure out at 0.472". Funny how you can stuff a round up a 0.4685 hole and have it come out 0.472! Go figure. I have never had any setback problems but then they only get loaded in the gun once. The other thing I never have is leading problems. Lyman NRA formula lube. I use the same setup with 40S&W with the same results.
I load 115gr FMJ's for my STI 9mm and use the FCD on them also with no problems. All in all the FCD does a great job IMHO.

On another note, I just bought a DPMS fluted Bull 20 in .223 so I am sure I will need some advise from you rifle guys. Looking at a .308 also. Second childhood I think??? :?

mike

Horseman
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Postby Horseman » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:06 pm

Alot of differences of opinion on the LCFCD, (not the rifle) from cast bullet shooters. It seems to me the more popular consensus is it was designed to be used with jacketed bullets and doesn't work well with "oversize" cast bullets . Most commercial cast bullets are "generally" about a thou over jacketed bullet size, (some are larger) but a lot of casters size their cast bullets much larger than "factory"sizes. What makes sense to me is if you can feel a "bump" as the round goes into the crimp die (through the carbide ring) it could be an issue. Not necessarily "swaging" the bullet smaller but (possibly) could effect neck tension. Think "squeezing" brass and bullet together as it passes through the carbide ring, then when the cartridge comes out, the brass springs back a bit more than the bullet...just one possibility..I DO know I haven't a problem using this die with 45 colt, but I do with 357mag using my cast bullets......I must add, I only reload for revolvers, so have zip knowledge using one with autoloaders...

rowe_s
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Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:46 pm

Postby rowe_s » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:35 pm

Lee FCD works fine for me on 40 S&W and 380 Auto. Bullets are hard cast.

http://twoalphabullets.com/Products.htm

Horseman
Posts: 411
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:50 pm

Postby Horseman » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:07 pm

I understand than some have no problem with the die. Here's what I meant when I said the 357 crimp die didn't work for me, simple math really. Pin gauges tell me the opening in the FCD is .376. The brass I'm using measures 11 thousandths (so thats 22) add that to .358 sized cast bullet and you get .380, that's 4 thousandths over the size of the carbide ring. That has to have an effect on the finished round. I will also say that a bullet sized .360 and seated in a case won't chamber in my wifes 357's. HOWEVER if I run that same cartridge through the FCD it will...but it will lose neck tension and erratic accuracy and velocitys are incurred..the same with the .358 sized as well. I've proven this to myself shooting over my chronograph. Like I said above, I don't have these issues with the 45 colt sized .452 or 44 mag if I don't use bullets sized over .430 (unfortunatley my old SBH has .432 throats) Bottom line is it works in some applications very well, not so well in others.....typical reloading as I see it... :D

Froznone
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Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 12:52 pm

Postby Froznone » Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:20 pm

Horseman wrote: Pin gauges tell me the opening in the FCD is .376.


Since SAMMI spec for minimum chamber is .379", who's fault is it for accepting an out of spec die from LEE?

You're using a broken tool and complaining that it doesn't work. :roll:
Send it back to LEE and ask for one that is in spec.

Horseman
Posts: 411
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:50 pm

Postby Horseman » Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:29 pm

Froznone wrote:
Horseman wrote: Pin gauges tell me the opening in the FCD is .376.


Since SAMMI spec for minimum chamber is .379", who's fault is it for accepting an out of spec die from LEE?

You're using a broken tool and complaining that it doesn't work. :roll:
Send it back to LEE and ask for one that is in spec.


Lighten up, I'm not complaining, Just stating what mine measured and that it wouldn't work with my 357s. The die says Lee on it not SAMMI..so tell me does Lee follow the .379 spec exactly or is .376 within (their) specs? It's the only one I have for 357 so I have nothing to compare it to.. If you have one measure it and tell me what it is, then I'll Know that mines out of "spec" for a Lee FCD..

rowe_s
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Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:46 pm

Postby rowe_s » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:32 pm

Horseman, Sorry if I missed it in your previous post, do you know the hardness of your cast bullets?

The hard cast I buy do not swag down to the size of the die, and they hold very tight with the crimp. Some cast bullets I bought off a guy were cast, but seemed soft and did not hold tightly in the case.

Horseman
Posts: 411
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:50 pm

Postby Horseman » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:00 pm

rowe_s wrote:Horseman, Sorry if I missed it in your previous post, do you know the hardness of your cast bullets?

The hard cast I buy do not swag down to the size of the die, and they hold very tight with the crimp. Some cast bullets I bought off a guy were cast, but seemed soft and did not hold tightly in the case.


I cast with WW with a bit on tin added...checked with my Lee tester at 11-12BHN..I size and lube everything I cast with a lubrasizer..my guns have been "optimized" for cast bullets and I get very little (if any) leading..I have used Lazer Cast bullets (they run around 21BHN I believe) and have had good results with them also..fit is everything with cast...

also, the issues I have had with the "sizing" wasn't so much with swaging the bullet as much as "spring back" of the case being more than the bullet, hence losing neck tension, at least thats my belief..

rowe_s
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Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:46 pm

Postby rowe_s » Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:31 pm

Thanks for the info horseman.


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